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Thread: A Reflection On Juubito's SM Jutsu Weakness, and Eventual Implication

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    A Web Comic Artist usjoss's Avatar
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    Default A Reflection On Juubito's SM Jutsu Weakness, and Eventual Implication

    There is one think I do not like about power building in Naruto series, and though I don't complain often about it, it is worth mentioning.

    Kishi always build unreasonably a powerful character, then end up trolling it with a trollish weakness. KAbuto paid the price (Izanami) and Obito is paying his (SM). Who is next?


    A. Now, let look at some facts:

    (1) In Naruto vs Nagato, and later edo Madara, we have seen that Rinnegan can absorb all ninjutsus. In fact, Nagato's path absorb many of Naruto's sage Jutsu.

    (2) When Juubi appeared, it was said that Juubi is a mass of natural energy. While I don't think that this means that Juubi is unable to create chakra, many people considers Juubi has pure natural energy.

    (3a) Obito has Rinnegan, and unlike me, many people believe he can use all the paths.

    (3b) Many people believe that six path techniques are the Jutsus solely available to people who have Rinnegan.

    B. Fact analysis

    From (3a) and (3b), I think that it is logical to think that Obito can use all six path techniques. Fact (1) strongly suggests that Obito can absorb chakra of any nature including nature energy base chakra (aka SM Jutsus). Given that the Juubi inside Obito is a mass of natural energy, fact (2) tell me that Obito should be able to absorb SM Jutsus without any consequence. In fact, we can ask why absorbing more natural energy would be detrimental to someone who has fuse with a mass of Natural energy?


    Clearly, while I don't know the reason behind Obito's vulnerability to SM Jutsus, there is no good reason to explain why he cannot use chakra absorption Jutsu to absorb the SM Jutsu. There is no reason to explain why he cannot perform wide scale Shinra tense against Naruto and Sasuke, etc.

    Of course, in my conclusion, I am assuming that Obito can use all Rinnegan Jutsus. However, can he really all the rrinnegan Jutsu? If he cannot, why is he not able to use all Rinnegan Jutsu?

    To try to answer these, let look at Madara, Obito, Edo Madara, and Nagato.

    C. On Rinnegan users


    Madara

    Madara unlocked Rinnegan, said he was old and almost dead, then gave his Rinnegan to Nagato in order to revive him. What if actually, Madara gave his Rinnegan away because he could not handle it. What if it was because his body did not meet the requirements to use Rinnegan that he had to give it away. One confirming supporting argument is what Kabuto said. Kabuto said that he deciphered Madara's body. Thus, he and Orochimaru made a new hypothesis that was beyond what others did - referring to Danzou.

    Interestingly, what Danzou did was to replace only part of his body with Hashirama. It also seemed that Madara did the same - that is he only place a piece of Hashi to close his wound. Thus he needed life support. Concerning this, I have hypothesized that Madara got too old because his body could not handle Rinnegan after he unlocked it. This can be seen with Kakashi just after unlocking MS. Kakashi had to mature before he can re-unlock and use the MS - actually 14 years or 16 years after he unlocked it.

    Obito

    Obito has the worst used of Rinnegan. In fact, given how Naruto is talking through his chakra to others now, if we assume that anyone can control dead bodies though chakra connection, then we can conclude that Obito has never used Rinnegan. The reason is that the only things he did was to control dead bodies, and actually, he had been controlling Gedo Mazou similarly as well, except Gedo Mazou had 9 eyes.

    Interestingly, it turn out that Obito also has a poor body - that is partial Hashirama's cell+Madara's on one side, and plain Obito on the other side.

    Edo Madara

    He has a perfect vessel made of Hashirama's cell. Thus typically, his eco was young unlike his older body who died in the cave. This has made debate on this forum before. Interestingly, Edo Madara has been using Rinnegan consistently with a meteor pulling from the sky.

    Note that the difference between Madara, Obito, and Edo Madara is that the later has a perfect body, or a Senju body. We even saw that when eco Madara was summoned, he did not have Rinnegan, and he was not surprised. However, when he unlocked the Rinnegan, he got surprised. This show that Edo Madara was not expecting to unlock the rinnegan because it is not a power that belong to his original self. Rather, it can be obtained only by some science.

    Now, notice that unlike the real Madara who unlocked Rinnegan when he was almost dead, Edo Madara unlocked it instantly. This again suggests that the full Rikudo body is necessary to unlock Rinnegan. Madara's use of the Rinnegan also show that the full body hypothesized by Kabuto and Oro is playing its role unlike Obito and the true Madara when he was alive.

    Nagato

    He is the best Rinnegan user of the manga. He only got the eyes implanted, and had a body that is Uzumaki. Now, I am certain I am not the only one who believe that Uzumaki have feat that is even closer to Rikudo's body legend than the Senju (except Hashi). In terms of statistical distribution over the people shown, it appears that Uzumaki are more special than Senjus - body feats-wise.

    Thus, I can hypothesize that Nagato was able to use Rinnegan because he had also the full body of Rikudo.

    D. Some Hypothesis

    Going from Obito's poor use of Rinnegan (or maybe no use at all), old Madara giving his Rinnegan away to an Uzumaki rather than a young naive Uchiha (which he could find), Edo Madara instant Rinnegan unlock and being surprised because his body was deciphered, and Nagato, I think these hypotheses below can be true:

    H1. To use the Rinnegan, you need a specific Body, which Rikudo had. The only clan that has this body naturally is Uzumaki. This body can be obtained by a perfect fusion of Senju and Uchiha body. Partial implant of Senju body in Uchiha cannot give that body, and therefore delay Rinnegan to when close to death.

    H2. Even having Juubi's power, Rinnegan, Senju Uchiha half body, Obito was still unable to do six paths. It may be also possible that six paths techniques are available only to those who have the full body explained in H1. This at least could imply that Rinnegan is not the sole source of Six paths technique.


    I am sorry for the length. I hope you enjoy it.
    Last edited by usjoss; 10-31-2013 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #2
    Trolling is my passion. Moneyken's Avatar
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    A specific body...hmm...interesting hypothesis.

    So Uzumaki have the body...but not the eyes.

    And Uchiha has the eyes...but not the body.

    You might be on to something here,

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    Level One Otaku Ultimatesagenaruto's Avatar
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    i also think it has something to do with the fact that you need both eyes to use the techs. obito has 1 eye thus is only able to do a couple rennigan abilities. nagato had both eyes, plus powerful chakra thus he was able to use it to it's fullest abilities. madara can use rennigan abilities but we have only seen a couple as well.

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    King of all time Iam D. King's Avatar
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    I also believe that Uzumaki clan is greater than Senju clan when it comes to body. And that strong Senju shinobis comes from the Uzumaki + senju DNA such as Hashi completely utilizing Mokuton.. (with this I conclude that Mokuton is a product of Uzumaki and senju)

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    A Page Flipper
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    It is always entertaining to watch people while they try to explain the mistakes kishi makes with logic.
    You guys have to accept that you are putting more tought in this manga than kishi is doing, most of the "mysterys" of naruto are simple plotholes and mistakes made by kishi. The amount of plotholes in naruto numbers more than the stars.

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    Level One Otaku silueto's Avatar
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    To reflect on the topic i think to utilizw the full power of the rinnegan one needs both eyes just like the uchiha to have a susanoo one needs to have both eyes to get its full potential.
    Obito lack one eye so we cant say what the eye can do or cant do. compare his eyes to kakashi and his they have different justus but they both can do something at equality
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    A Web Comic Artist usjoss's Avatar
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    For those who actually are thinking on the topic, the alternatize solution given is that Obito is missing the other Rinnegan. Well, note that Obito actually keeping the his Sharingan literally meant that the Sharingan he had is worth more than the other Rinnegan. Also, while Susanoo as not been seen with one Sharingan, Kakashi and Obito can use most of the basic jutsus available. Besides, Obito praised Sasuke because he can have Susanoo, which means that Susanoo is not a feat that every Sharingan can possess.

    In fact, to get Susanoo, you need Amaterasu in one eye, and Tsukyomi (or whatever) in the other eye. So far, none of Kakashi or Obito has been seen to use Amaterasu. Thus, while we remember that you need the two eyes, we also know that you need some specific feats in single eyes.

    Now, look at the six paths techs themselves. When Nagato used them in his full potential (Edo NAgato), most of the feat were from the body. All the paths could appears in his body as if he was growing additional body part. The only visual effect was the share vision which actually required summoning animals. Thus, this vision field is actually not a vision field similar to Byakugan, but a collection of separate vision fields from individuals controlled by the main body.

    This lead me to believe, that though Rinnegan is said to be a dojutsu, if the six paths depends solely on Rinnegan, then Rinnegan relies more on the body than on the eyes. Can someone even tell how six paths depends practically on Rinnegan? How did Kishi connects six paths techs to Rinnegan? Do we even have a FX on the eyes that show that Rinnegan is responsible of the Jutsu?

    Basically, the only reason we think that six paths is due to Rinnegan is because it has been used only by people who have Rinnegan. Besides, as i pointed in the OP, we it would not be farfetched to say that Obito never use six paths techniques. I means apart from connecting from the Jinchuriki, he did nothing related to Rinnegan.

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    OTP didn't happened Zulkuss's Avatar
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    I almost didn't commented, but there are couple of things that usjoss is ignoring:

    1) Madara never expressed surprise when he used Rinnegan.
    2) Madara practically said to Obito "half the set of eyes, half the power".
    3) To have Susanoo, you need to awaken double Mangekyo, like Sasuke said. Ama-Tsu-Sus is set of Itachi only.
    4) Obito used those Rinnegan related things:
    4.1) Six Paths = 6 bodies, shared vision.
    4.2) Summoning of Gedo Mazo - which is possible only with Rinnegan.
    4.3) Chakra Chains of the Outer Path - Outer Path is one of the Rinnegan Paths, 7th Path.
    4.4) Madara almost forced him to use Gedo Rinne Tensei - another Rinnegan ability, which Obito wouldn't be capable to do without Rinnegan.
    5) Lack of proofs that Madara never used Rinnegan before giving it to Nagato.
    6) Madara not using Paths other than Preta and Deva (pulling meteors) is not a prove of inability to use other Paths.

    Besides, this is a theory thread and theories have proper section for them.
    Last edited by Zulkuss; 10-31-2013 at 08:54 PM.
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    Posting Phantom Mr.zaroff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hastur the King in Yellow View Post
    I almost didn't commented, but there are couple of things that usjoss is ignoring:

    1) Madara never expressed surprise when he used Rinnegan.
    2) Madara practically said to Obito "half the set of eyes, half the power".
    3) To have Susanoo, you need to awaken double Mangekyo, like Sasuke said. Ama-Tsu-Sus is set of Itachi only.
    4) Obito used those Rinnegan related things:
    4.1) Six Paths = 6 bodies, shared vision.
    4.2) Summoning of Gedo Mazo - which is possible only with Rinnegan.
    4.3) Chakra Chains of the Outer Path - Outer Path is one of the Rinnegan Paths, 7th Path.
    4.4) Madara almost forced him to use Gedo Rinne Tensei - another Rinnegan ability, which Obito wouldn't be capable to do without Rinnegan.
    5) Lack of proofs that Madara never used Rinnegan before giving it to Nagato.
    6) Madara not using Paths other than Preta and Deva (pulling meteors) is not a prove of inability to use other Paths.

    Besides, this is a theory thread and theories have proper section for them.
    I felt the need to comment because Madara can Ama-Tsu-Sus as well..

  10. #10
    Itachi-fanboy Slayer Tavimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.zaroff View Post
    I felt the need to comment because Madara can Ama-Tsu-Sus as well..
    Too bad he is missing the Ama-Tsu-...

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