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Thread: Time Travel's Logic Discussion

  1. #1
    Very Annoying Guy RennanNT's Avatar
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    Default Time Travel's Logic Discussion

    I didn't wanted to talk much about this before because it involved lots of speculations and few concrete information, but adding this chapter now, I think most of the pieces are already over the table, so I'm creating this thread to fill the blank spaces and clear whats is confusing.

    Getting to the point. The way I interpreted so far:

    1 - The time travel is the "parallel worlds" kind. Brief explanation if you don't know the term: Every single decision creates different futures, one for each possible choice, thus there are infinite parallel worlds, which things can be completely different (like humanity perished in one, true peace was reached in other and so on). Altering the past creates a new world, and the others worlds (including the one from the traveler came from) remain the same way.

    2 - Dokuro created the orb and the watchman to find a parallel world where the goddesses were saved and reconstruct it. This is the most confusing, because the parallel world already exists and redoing its events would keep things as they already are, one successful world, infinite failures, so whats the point? Her explanation was that his world would disappear if he didn't do it, but why? my theory for it is the next point.

    3 - His world could only exist because there were someone in the past (Keima) lead the past to it, and wouldn't exist in any natural flow of events. That is, there weren't ANY possibility of a world where the goddesses would be saved. But because Dokuro created the orb+watchman, the possibility appeared, and just by existing this possibility his parallel world came to existence, even before the past happening. So he have now to create the world. If this was confuse, think of it as in TWGOK, the answer for the old question "who came first" is the chicken (future where the time traveler came) not the egg (past built by the time traveler). I know that the chicken wasn't the first being who laid eggs, so the eggs surely came first, but please ignore this fact.

    So what you guys think?
    Anyone with another interpretation from what Dokuro said aside from parallel worlds?
    Or another theory why an parallel world would cease to exist?

  2. #2
    A faithful believer D47.Biryu's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    I agree with most of them, but for the part 3, I wonder if the possibilities don't really exist at all. While you may say the creating of the orb and watchman itself would alter the world, I believe if the flow of events is to depicted in the last panel of this page, such possibilities should exist, simply because it would naturally be there after certain turns.

    While I agree the conception of "parallel worlds" you mentioned, I'm currently questioning if they are all parallel in structure instead of parallel between one original one and all other alternatives in series (Refer to circuit concept if it's difficult to understand). The reason for that is, there is just one pair of orb and watchman, isn't there? I wonder how can Dokurou observe all futures at once, if the medium is limited to one like that. Moreover, if Dokurou only had 1 "observer" with multiple "channels", the moment she's connecting with one may mean moments passing in another. Unless the watcher exists as many OR goes through each future one by one, it's not possible, I believe.

    So, should we think of the parallel worlds as only 2 of them - the original and the rest of the alternatives ? The latter, thus, would be out of sync with the former, probably being trapped in a locked/slowed time flow, so that all possibilities would be checked before the original world passes a certain time point - miasma filling Maijima Town.

    As for the current attempt of reviving the possibilities, practically speaking, it's impossible, because of the law of cause and effect. I can relate to the Butterfly Effect. One small action would cause fatal changes to the world, and the fact that some differences exist, the two worlds have crossed the point of no return (yes/no).
    "An imperfect reality, a perfect game." - Keima Katsuragi

  3. #3
    Very Annoying Guy RennanNT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D47.Biryu View Post
    I wonder if the possibilities don't really exist at all.
    What I mean is: if it would occur in a natural way, then the world he came from, doesn't need a time traveler to exist. And if its the case, why it would disappear if he doesn't recreate it? Why letting things happen naturally without interference would end with his world disappearing? Thus I concluded that it needs the time travel to exists, and the time travel needs the orb to happen.

    The reason for that is, there is just one pair of orb and watchman, isn't there? I wonder how can Dokurou observe all futures at once, if the medium is limited to one like that. Moreover, if Dokurou only had 1 "observer" with multiple "channels", the moment she's connecting with one may mean moments passing in another. Unless the watcher exists as many OR goes through each future one by one, it's not possible, I believe.
    You see, every world created from that point on will have an watchman, just like it will have an Keima and an Dokuro Skull in each world. When any of those watchman finds a good future, she have to send to the past someone who knows how to reach it. So Dokuro wasn't monitoring any of them or having any kind of contact - not the Dokuro in the past who he is talking with now, at least. She, in fact, didn't knew nothing about Keima till he call her.

    So, should we think of the parallel worlds as only 2 of them - the original and the rest of the alternatives ? The latter, thus, would be out of sync with the former, probably being trapped in a locked/slowed time flow, so that all possibilities would be checked before the original world passes a certain time point - miasma filling Maijima Town.
    Interesting theory, principally for a software programmer specialized in optimization like myself.
    Dokuro kinda of creating all kind of simulation worlds in order to find the best solution and then apply in the real world. And it even resembles a lot galges, where you can check all possible outcomes till you find the one you want (good end).

    The biggest problem here is that it would be like the people in his world are fakes/NPC which will be thrown aside, and the series will continue with the original ones (though they are supposed to be just like the ones we know, after he builds the past). I'm not sure if Wakaki would do a twist like this..
    Last edited by RennanNT; 04-14-2013 at 04:54 AM.

  4. #4
    For The Oath Sworn Through Courage And Love! genesic123's Avatar
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    I see it as more of a closed loop.

    The original 7 year old Keima has not experienced this yet.

    So the future Keima basically has to make the past work for him.Only he can conviently set this up.

    Remember we still have Shiratori and Family.We do not know if the construction has acually stopped.

    I don't think he will be going on a conquest though.

    We will see Satyr in this arc i guess.
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  5. #5
    Has a Few Faves Meowx's Avatar
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    i think you are absolutely correct xD after i got seriously brainscrewed your solution was the exact same one i decided on O_o it's just an inifinite cycle, like the chicken and egg thing, i guess.

    i read a really creepy book called 'the last universe' by william sleator about quantum and time travel, and this reminds me so much of it besides the fact that the story in that book didn't end well. so this dude and his friend just kept travelling in space/time through multiple universes until he reached an ultimate end where he had to either go back to his original universe as (becoming) his unknowing friend (who had acted weird right from the start since it was the future him) or to this 'utopia world where only his grandparents who created the quantum world lived in) so, this guy couldn't change anything and everything kept repeating.

    so i guess this plot just keeps repeating a good ending by travelling back and forth. i hope it's a happy one where elsie and keima end up together bwahaha. but i seriously cant think straight currently from the lack of sleep and thus the random blabbering do i even make sense

  6. #6
    N3wB XD bobosila98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D47.Biryu View Post
    Hmm,

    I agree with most of them, but for the part 3, I wonder if the possibilities don't really exist at all. While you may say the creating of the orb and watchman itself would alter the world, I believe if the flow of events is to depicted in the last panel of this page, such possibilities should exist, simply because it would naturally be there after certain turns.

    While I agree the conception of "parallel worlds" you mentioned, I'm currently questioning if they are all parallel in structure instead of parallel between one original one and all other alternatives in series (Refer to circuit concept if it's difficult to understand). The reason for that is, there is just one pair of orb and watchman, isn't there? I wonder how can Dokurou observe all futures at once, if the medium is limited to one like that. Moreover, if Dokurou only had 1 "observer" with multiple "channels", the moment she's connecting with one may mean moments passing in another. Unless the watcher exists as many OR goes through each future one by one, it's not possible, I believe.

    So, should we think of the parallel worlds as only 2 of them - the original and the rest of the alternatives ? The latter, thus, would be out of sync with the former, probably being trapped in a locked/slowed time flow, so that all possibilities would be checked before the original world passes a certain time point - miasma filling Maijima Town.

    As for the current attempt of reviving the possibilities, practically speaking, it's impossible, because of the law of cause and effect. I can relate to the Butterfly Effect. One small action would cause fatal changes to the world, and the fact that some differences exist, the two worlds have crossed the point of no return (yes/no).

    about this part,
    While I agree the conception of "parallel worlds" you mentioned, I'm currently questioning if they are all parallel in structure instead of parallel between one original one and all other alternatives in series (Refer to circuit concept if it's difficult to understand). The reason for that is, there is just one pair of orb and watchman, isn't there? I wonder how can Dokurou observe all futures at once, if the medium is limited to one like that. Moreover, if Dokurou only had 1 "observer" with multiple "channels", the moment she's connecting with one may mean moments passing in another. Unless the watcher exists as many OR goes through each future one by one, it's not possible, I believe.
    correct me if i,m wrong, but maybe the concept is like pein, in the sense that the "observer" and "orb" of each parallel universe is connected in some ways

  7. #7
    no mercy for the rival... eterny's Avatar
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    This is what I think. From Dokurou's chart, this manga talks about infinite parallel worlds.
    She sent her copies as many as possible to those worlds, to find one where the world is saved.
    Here's where the 'evil' part comes. I think Dokurou tricked Keima.
    Why would the world where he come from disappear if he failed to achieve something in the past?
    If he failed, won't it just create another parallel world where humanity is destroyed?
    The already running future world, where Keima comes from, shouldn't be affected.
    At least, that's what the concept of parallel worlds that I know.
    Everything would stay the same, Keima and Tenri going to school trip, and so on.
    Failed school trip would just create another parallel world.
    A new branch of world line.

    The question is, why would Dokurou lie? I suspect she can't travel to parallel world herself.
    She's making use of Keima, so that this current self / consciousness of her can experience peaceful world.
    Your thought?
    Last edited by eterny; 04-14-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  8. #8
    Hah! You better have BURN HEAL! Deykar's Avatar
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    Doesn't Keimas existense already imply, that he suceed?
    If Keima fails to recreate his own future,wouldn't he negate his own existence and create a time paradox?

  9. #9
    A Page Flipper
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    here my theory :

    Dokuro (past) >> send orb+watchman to future to find good ending, if they find they will report to dokuro (past), what they find is keima

    keima(future) send to past to tell dokuro how future >> so dokuro (past) will follow events to reach keima(future) world

    dokuro(past) already know how the ending will come... then the last problem is how to begin that world line??

    dokuro(past) ask keima(future) to set keima(past) to love galge and all other kind he need...

    in other word... this arc is how Keima(future) will conquest Keima (Past)

  10. #10
    Very Annoying Guy RennanNT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genesic123 View Post
    I see it as more of a closed loop.

    The original 7 year old Keima has not experienced this yet.

    So the future Keima basically has to make the past work for him.Only he can conviently set this up.
    Thats how I was thinking before, and it could work that way.
    The problem was Dokuro turing it an parallel world type. Like eternity said, in this kind of logic, you can't change the future or make it disappear, you can only create a new one.

    Using DBZ as an example:
    After Cell's arc, there were at least 3 world existing at the same time:
    1 - The one where Gohan became SSJ2
    2 - the one where Trunks returned from the travel and defeated cell himself
    3 - The one where he didn't traveled and everyone probably died in Cell hands (omitted to get the feeling of good end to everyone, but it didn't ceased of exists because Trunks changed other worlds).

    Quote Originally Posted by bobosila98 View Post
    about this part,
    correct me if i,m wrong, but maybe the concept is like pein, in the sense that the "observer" and "orb" of each parallel universe is connected in some ways
    In relation to what I'm saying at least, an analogy in Naruto terms:
    Naruto has to reach some village but he doesn't know which road leads to it. He creates a kage-bushin and send it. At every fork in the road, the kage-buhsin multiply himself as to send one in each direction. Once a kate-bushin reach that village, it cancel itself, letting the original know what the correct path is. Please ignore the chance of the bushin forgetting the path.
    Last edited by RennanNT; 04-14-2013 at 01:31 PM.

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