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Thread: Idea for a Liar game round

  1. #1
    Has a Few Faves Kainazoo's Avatar
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    Default Idea for a Liar game round

    So, I had an idea about a game that can be played in the Liar Game. I'll disclose the rules first.

    The game is called the "Knockoff Campain"

    RULES

    -This game is designed for 16 players
    -Each player invests 100M : 1600M are up for grabs.
    -The setting is a Bid Poker-like room, with a central screen, tablets, and multiple rooms to hide and discuss.
    -No stealing tablets. The LGT has already done the finger registration on the tablets.


    The point of the game is to elect a "President" via the majority rule. Once a "President" is elected, the game is over. How do we elect a "President"? The game is set up of multiple rounds :

    Round 1


    Round 2 and subsequent rounds


    Each round will see the number of Candidates diminish, until there is two Candidates (then, it's a tie or the end) or until a round sees a Candidate with more than 50% of the votes (early election)
    This means the game can last only 1 round, or as long as 45 rounds (including ties)

    Once a "President" is elected...


    What does it mean?
    It means that if a player is elected unanimously, he ends up with 400M, and everyone ends with (1200/15)M= 80M. The more votes the President has, the more players win money, the smaller the shares.
    The President always wins more money.

    Random thoughts
    As the game progresses, Citizens's power rises. If you have a solid group like Akiyama, making everyone of your group except one person a Citizen might be an option....but then the only Candidate of the group has to vote for an opponent.
    Making a 2-man alliance only makes you last the first few rounds because

    So in the end it's a battle of groups
    It might or might be tempting to drop out of the game in the beginning to try to have an early election of the President, for a good share of the 1200M.
    Voting equally for everyone is not a good option.

    I think this game has a good depth...I'll try this with some IRL friends when I have the chance, but it's hard to do online (because online you can easily have private conversations, and you can lie way too easily...)
    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Very cool.It sure looks liar game-ish with these rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kainazoo View Post
    The President always wins more money.
    With such rules, it's possible for a player( or even 2 players) to win more then the president.For example, if the last round ends with only one player voting and the president wins with 10 votes(or 15), all of which are from this guy, then this player wins 1200-150 = 1050 .The substracted sum is the penalty for not voting for the other players.

    Also not voting should be a very important strategy throughout the game, so it will be good if there are simuilar things to the M tickets, with which you can buy somebody's strategy of not voting(or other) for money.If there is no insurance of the votes of people by some means, then most strategies are rendered meaningless because anybody can lie.
    Last edited by zmeqt; 12-30-2012 at 09:40 AM.

  3. #3
    Has a Few Faves Kainazoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zmeqt View Post
    With such rules, it's possible for a player( or even 2 players) to win more then the president.For example, if the last round ends with only one player voting and the president wins with 10 votes(or 15), all of which are from this guy, then this player wins 1200-150 = 1050 .The substracted sum is the penalty for not voting for the other players.

    Also not voting should be a very important strategy throughout the game, so it will be good if there are simuilar things to the M tickets, with which you can buy somebody's strategy of not voting(or other) for money.If there is no insurance of the votes of people by some means, then most strategies are rendered meaningless because anybody can lie.
    Indeed, I forgot the case where everyone abstains.

    Oh, and there is another case where this happens, via a hidden rule (I didn't plan for it, but that's very Liar Game-ish) : you can also win with less than 50% of the votes, you just need for every other player to have the same amount of votes.

    It's easier than it sounds : let's take for example a game with Fukunaga, Nao, and 14 NPCs. Every NPCs decide to vote in a circular fashion to start. Fukunaga and Nao vote for each other, but Fukunaga lies and abstains :
    Everyone 10 votes - Nao 0 (Nao becomes a Citizen, Fukunaga has a 10M fine)

    Nao starts to cry but Fukunaga tells her there's a way for her to make money. She votes as a citizen for Fukunaga, Fukunaga abstains again. Fukunaga 15 votes, everyone 10 votes (Game over, Fukunaga wins 400M-20M for fines, Nao wins 1200M)


    EDIT : This is true that for this game, L and M Tickets are more suited than tablets.

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    woah O.O that's a pretty impressive set up there! I could easily imagine this being a fight between three different "parties" (Yokoya, Paradise, Akiyama) to earn the votes of the citizens.

    It's got a really good twist to it too, because for an extended game it's most appropriate to LOSE as soon as possible. Since citizens get more votes they are the ones that rule the game. I could picture Yokoya himself ordering his lackies to not vote for him simply so that he would have more power.

    While I'm on this train of thought, you could very easily cripple an opposing "Party" by not letting them turn candidates into citizens. For example;

    Akiyama, Nao, and Fukunaga plan to turn Nao into a citizen so that more votes are at their disposal, so they plan for her to get no votes, or at most a handful from other players. (Let's assume that Yokoya has 2 others at his disposal like in Musical Chairs, and there is no Paradise cult, just for simplicity's sake)

    Planned outcome;
    Fukunaga+Akiyama= 15 votes each (They exchange votes, Nao splits hers between them) +X (Where X is votes optained from NPCs)
    Nao=0 votes +X

    Yokoya= 20 +X
    Lackey A= 5+X
    Lackey B=5+X

    10 NPCs: 100 votes distributed around, minus whatever was given to the main "parties"

    Yokoya has the most votes in that situation, but it's unlikely that he would get the majority (81) in the first round. However, what happens instead is something like this:

    Akiyama: 15
    Fukunaga: 15
    Nao: 10
    Yokoya: 20
    Lackey A: 0
    Lackey B: 0

    10 NPCs: 100 votes divided around. Everyone with at least one vote.

    Now Yokoya's party has a total of 40 votes to use as they please (11 of which are used to guarantee Yokoya's survival.) It becomes a mad dash to make citizens that are loyal to you in order to obtain a majority vote, with the Yokaya jerk-ass party trying to cockblock as many people as possible with each round while trying to gain favour of the NPCs.

    I'm basing this scenario on the assumption that votes don't carry over between rounds, of course. Does anyone see a flaw in my logic?

  5. #5
    One of The Followers aragorn1r's Avatar
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    Default Sounds easy

    Just get group of 5 people to vote for you then you win round one... They split the money each getting 240 mill

    You vote everyone else

    Someone has larger majority? You still makes money

    Even if someone has the same amount of votes as you, you voted them so they have one more

    You win or you win with less money

    The only possibility of a tie is if only one other group existed with the same plan, in which case you spend 2 votes on each of the group members so your people become citizens. If he has the same pla, then everon but you both is a citizen, so you both have to spend 10 votes on each other and then you pay people to vote for you (up to 3 extra people)
    Last edited by aragorn1r; 01-06-2013 at 11:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn1r View Post
    Just get group of 5 people to vote for you then you win round one...
    If there are 16 people playing that's 160 votes... That means you need 81 votes minimum to win Round one with a majority of the votes. (you need more than 50% of the total votes to win, not more than everyone else). If 5 people vote all their votes for you you have 50 votes, so you're a bit shy there... But that concept is sound. In theory.

    The problem with the Liar Game is that it's a game of Liars... Trust is VERY hard to come by. Even IF you can convince 8 people to give you all their votes, and one other person to give you one vote... that's just all the more chance that one of them will try and convince the other people to betray you and make more money.

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    One of The Followers aragorn1r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiraga View Post
    If there are 16 people playing that's 160 votes... That means you need 81 votes minimum to win Round one with a majority of the votes. (you need more than 50% of the total votes to win, not more than everyone else). If 5 people vote all their votes for you you have 50 votes, so you're a bit shy there... But that concept is sound. In theory.

    The problem with the Liar Game is that it's a game of Liars... Trust is VERY hard to come by. Even IF you can convince 8 people to give you all their votes, and one other person to give you one vote... that's just all the more chance that one of them will try and convince the other people to betray you and make more money.
    So you mean like someone would betray you? I mean, the reason I suggest 5 is because if any other person were to get a larger following, you could vote for them.

    But why would someone in the group betray you? They gain a profit if the plan is successful (1.2 Billion/5 = 240 Million), they make plenty of money. You want to minimize people voting for you so that people who vote for you don't have a real necessity to betray you right (for example, if you got 10 people to vote for you, then the remaining pot would be split 120 Million). For the example of starting off with 10 people, they could just get 7 people to vote for them, the remaining people not in the group and 3 traitors who would all agree to vote against you because the profit margin would be less (and they'd vote for all the people that weren't traitors with their votes, keeping all your voters as only candidates not citizens).

    The reason 5 seems like a magic number to me is because their are 15 other people in the game, and you can spend 10 votes to get a chance of being in the pot of someone else's victory, and also because 5 is a smallish group that doesn't need to be diminished because it seems borderline capable of winning. Think about it, the traitor has to convince 6 people at least to join him, and then has to hide the existence of your group (because it would not be profitable for them to split the pot 1.2 bill/6 rather than 1.2 bill/5). If they knew of your group, they'd vote for you instead because it would not make sense for the traitor to vote for you while garnering votes for himself, ultimately being a self-destructive process, so he'd just assume the traitor didn't vote for me so the people voting me were now 4 which would return to the original 5 if they betrayed the traitor's group (a 40 Million Yen increase in profit). It's more likely you'd win by a landslide if the group was ever revealed. Hell, you can just reveal it at the beginning of the game, and then no one would likely betray you, only that someone else might create a similar plan, but that just follows my first post's logic on how to deal with that.

    I mean, you can't just assume betrayal, right? The need to betray would have to come from a more profitable plan, because they all want money from this game, not because they're just punks who want to betray. To win the game, you need a big group, but the larger the group the higher chance of betrayal. If you're group contained Akiyama, Nao, Yokoya, Harimoto, and shortbob (forgot her name lol), you win, because all the people in that group would not be able to really form a traitor group (Yokoya would have to get a traitor and confirm that person was willing to betray if you announced it previously, and no one in that 5 man group would join his forces. Akiyama and Nao are trustworthy, so they'd be on your side (no advantage for them not to, they have to go through Revival Rounds to save people anyways, because that's where the LGT makes money anyways. The only possibility of a turncoat is Harimoto and shortbob, because they seek maximum profit, so you can just make the President Harimoto instead then to avoid a betrayal).

  8. #8
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    WOW, wow wow wow I am totally Impressed that was so cool

    Nice game I really like it, reminds me of a mix between Minority Rule and the Reconstruction game...but different of course

    thank you for making it up! and please continue to make more games I think your really talented at it..if you have time

    Please try it as soon as possible and let us know..we are really excited to hear your findings you might need to adjust stuff after you play it in RL but looks like you thought it out well

    Can I ask you some questions? Sorry if this sounds repetitive I just wanted to make sure I am on the same page

    1) So you said that they can't leave a slot empty they have to vote all 10 (15)..what is the punishment if they leave
    a slot empty?
    2) What if they write their own name? what then do they become a citizen or pay a fine?
    3) Weird question but: when the votes are shown on the screen is it the players actual name or perhaps a letter or number was
    assigned to them ( you would know who to vote for by forming teams and asking them...makes the game more difficult )
    4) What is the penalty for not voting for a candidate but voting for another citizen?
    5) Does an elimination mean just mean not being able to run for President or is their a penalty (money) for getting the least
    amount of votes?
    sorry for the troubling questions...I know I am just being difficult sorry

    really good job

    For a plot twist I would really like it if everyone for some reason gets the same amount of votes and this happens twice and then Akiyama comes up with the - I now what's going on- explanation and a sure winning strategy for the game

    I don't know why that would happen but it sure would bring about a lot of tension...for example one team could threaten to make
    the LGT the President if they don't get enough votes

    Of course the chance of that is low perhaps impossible and I am just thinking how to make this game more dark and twisty like

    Thank you so much for this Awesome game

  9. #9
    One of The Followers aragorn1r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacktear View Post
    WOW, wow wow wow I am totally Impressed that was so cool

    Nice game I really like it, reminds me of a mix between Minority Rule and the Reconstruction game...but different of course

    thank you for making it up! and please continue to make more games I think your really talented at it..if you have time

    Please try it as soon as possible and let us know..we are really excited to hear your findings you might need to adjust stuff after you play it in RL but looks like you thought it out well

    Can I ask you some questions? Sorry if this sounds repetitive I just wanted to make sure I am on the same page

    1) So you said that they can't leave a slot empty they have to vote all 10 (15)..what is the punishment if they leave
    a slot empty?
    2) What if they write their own name? what then do they become a citizen or pay a fine?
    3) Weird question but: when the votes are shown on the screen is it the players actual name or perhaps a letter or number was
    assigned to them ( you would know who to vote for by forming teams and asking them...makes the game more difficult )
    4) What is the penalty for not voting for a candidate but voting for another citizen?
    5) Does an elimination mean just mean not being able to run for President or is their a penalty (money) for getting the least
    amount of votes?
    sorry for the troubling questions...I know I am just being difficult sorry

    really good job

    For a plot twist I would really like it if everyone for some reason gets the same amount of votes and this happens twice and then Akiyama comes up with the - I now what's going on- explanation and a sure winning strategy for the game

    I don't know why that would happen but it sure would bring about a lot of tension...for example one team could threaten to make
    the LGT the President if they don't get enough votes

    Of course the chance of that is low perhaps impossible and I am just thinking how to make this game more dark and twisty like

    Thank you so much for this Awesome game
    Most of the syntax of what happens if you vote X that you shouldn't be able to is resolved by him saying it's mostly on the tablet that the LGT gives, so it works out fine (it updates). I'm assuming not using all your votes = not voting, but that's a good question. And there's no penalty for not being a President, President is the person that wins lol.

    No team can make the LGT the President, either side would attempt to gain more votes instead of tying 3 times in a row. Worst case scenario they tie twice, and they decide to elect a leader between themselves (leader group 1 wins or leader group 2 wins, split the money evenly between the groups).

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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn1r View Post
    So you mean like someone would betray you? I mean, the reason I suggest 5 is because if any other person were to get a larger following, you could vote for them.

    But why would someone in the group betray you? They gain a profit if the plan is successful (1.2 Billion/5 = 240 Million), they make plenty of money. You want to minimize people voting for you so that people who vote for you don't have a real necessity to betray you right (for example, if you got 10 people to vote for you, then the remaining pot would be split 120 Million). For the example of starting off with 10 people, they could just get 7 people to vote for them, the remaining people not in the group and 3 traitors who would all agree to vote against you because the profit margin would be less (and they'd vote for all the people that weren't traitors with their votes, keeping all your voters as only candidates not citizens).

    The reason 5 seems like a magic number to me is because their are 15 other people in the game, and you can spend 10 votes to get a chance of being in the pot of someone else's victory, and also because 5 is a smallish group that doesn't need to be diminished because it seems borderline capable of winning. Think about it, the traitor has to convince 6 people at least to join him, and then has to hide the existence of your group (because it would not be profitable for them to split the pot 1.2 bill/6 rather than 1.2 bill/5). If they knew of your group, they'd vote for you instead because it would not make sense for the traitor to vote for you while garnering votes for himself, ultimately being a self-destructive process, so he'd just assume the traitor didn't vote for me so the people voting me were now 4 which would return to the original 5 if they betrayed the traitor's group (a 40 Million Yen increase in profit). It's more likely you'd win by a landslide if the group was ever revealed. Hell, you can just reveal it at the beginning of the game, and then no one would likely betray you, only that someone else might create a similar plan, but that just follows my first post's logic on how to deal with that.

    I mean, you can't just assume betrayal, right? The need to betray would have to come from a more profitable plan, because they all want money from this game, not because they're just punks who want to betray. To win the game, you need a big group, but the larger the group the higher chance of betrayal. If you're group contained Akiyama, Nao, Yokoya, Harimoto, and shortbob (forgot her name lol), you win, because all the people in that group would not be able to really form a traitor group (Yokoya would have to get a traitor and confirm that person was willing to betray if you announced it previously, and no one in that 5 man group would join his forces. Akiyama and Nao are trustworthy, so they'd be on your side (no advantage for them not to, they have to go through Revival Rounds to save people anyways, because that's where the LGT makes money anyways. The only possibility of a turncoat is Harimoto and shortbob, because they seek maximum profit, so you can just make the President Harimoto instead then to avoid a betrayal).
    Again, your theory checks out perfectly! But it's the MATH that I'm saying doesn't work out properly. This game does not look to be a game where "This person earns more votes than anybody else" But a game of true "Majority rule" where you must earn 51% or more of all possible votes in order to win.

    Lemme break it down again; 16 people with 10 votes each means there are a total of 160 votes spread between all the candidates. Let's use your example of a 6 man team, all working together. The leader gets 50 votes to his name, and he cannot vote for himself. With this hypothetical situation:
    Leader:50 votes
    Everyone else: Less than 50 votes

    Even though the Leader of the six man group has more votes than anyone else he does NOT have a majority of votes. If there are 160 votes, then 81 the majority with 51% (52 if you want to be stingy on math). THAT is the magic number. To use more politics terminology this is a "Minority government" situation. You do not have complete support of the people, and your power is not "absolute" The game is NOT won in round one, and continues on to round two with one or more people losing candidacy and becoming citizens.

    However, if you get eight other people to vote for you, making a nine man team, you get this possible situation;

    Leader: 83 votes. (80 from team mates, 3 from random sources)
    Everyone else: The other 57 votes.

    THIS is the situation where after round one the game is over. It simply is not mathematically possible to reliably ensure more than 50 percent of the popular vote with only 5 people voting for you. You would need to get 31 other votes from people you are not allied with. Nigh impossible isn't it?

    So... yeah, I guess what my point all boils down to is this; Your plan is a brilliant one if you ensure all your members will stick to the plan. We just needed clarification on the terms of winning so that we could math better. "Majority of votes"=/="More votes than anyone else"

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