Idea for a Liar game round

[Kainazoo]

So, I had an idea about a game that can be played in the Liar Game. I'll disclose the rules first.

The game is called the "Knockoff Campain"

RULES

-This game is designed for 16 players
-Each player invests 100M : 1600M are up for grabs.
-The setting is a Bid Poker-like room, with a central screen, tablets, and multiple rooms to hide and discuss.
-No stealing tablets. The LGT has already done the finger registration on the tablets.

The point of the game is to elect a "President" via the majority rule. Once a "President" is elected, the game is over. How do we elect a "President"? The game is set up of multiple rounds :

Round 1

-Each player has 10 votes and HAS to vote 10 times. You can vote multiple times for the same person, but you can't vote for yourself.
-Votes are made via the tablet. If you don't vote before the time limit, you're fined 10M each round you do so.

-Votes are counted by the LGT. The number of votes (and only the number of votes) of all players is displayed on the central screen and :

One player has more than 50% of the votes.
That player is elected "President" and the game is over.

Everyone has the same amount of votes.
The round is done over. If this scenario occurs three times in a row, the "President" is the LGT, everyone loses their money.

None of the two cases above
The player with the least amount of votes is eliminated.
If there is more than one player who finishes last, all such players are eliminated.

Round 2 and subsequent rounds

The round is played the same with less players (15 is there is a clear loser, very probably less than 15.)
Players still alive vote 10 times. They are called "Candidates"
Players eliminated become "Citizens" and vote 15 times.
You can only vote for "Candidates".

Each round will see the number of Candidates diminish, until there is two Candidates (then, it's a tie or the end) or until a round sees a Candidate with more than 50% of the votes (early election)
This means the game can last only 1 round, or as long as 45 rounds (including ties)

Once a "President" is elected...

The President wins 400M (300M after recollection)
The other 1200M is divided between the players who voted for the President during the last round, following prorata of the distribution of the votes.
For example, if you voted 8 times for the President during the last round and the President ended with 75 votes, you get (8/75) of the 1200M, which is 128M, 28M after recollection.

What does it mean?
It means that if a player is elected unanimously, he ends up with 400M, and everyone ends with (1200/15)M= 80M. The more votes the President has, the more players win money, the smaller the shares.
The President always wins more money.

Random thoughts
As the game progresses, Citizens's power rises. If you have a solid group like Akiyama, making everyone of your group except one person a Citizen might be an option....but then the only Candidate of the group has to vote for an opponent.
Making a 2-man alliance only makes you last the first few rounds because

1) Less Candidates = Higher need of votes to survive. In the first round, you need 10 votes to have a guaranteed survival. With 15 persons, you need 11 votes to have a guaranteed survival.
2) Citizens votes have more weight.

So in the end it's a battle of groups
It might or might be tempting to drop out of the game in the beginning to try to have an early election of the President, for a good share of the 1200M.
Voting equally for everyone is not a good option.

I think this game has a good depth...I'll try this with some IRL friends when I have the chance, but it's hard to do online (because online you can easily have private conversations, and you can lie way too easily...)
Any thoughts?

[zmeqt]

Very cool.It sure looks liar game-ish with these rules.

The President always wins more money.

With such rules, it's possible for a player( or even 2 players) to win more then the president.For example, if the last round ends with only one player voting and the president wins with 10 votes(or 15), all of which are from this guy, then this player wins 1200-150 = 1050 .The substracted sum is the penalty for not voting for the other players.

Also not voting should be a very important strategy throughout the game, so it will be good if there are simuilar things to the M tickets, with which you can buy somebody's strategy of not voting(or other) for money.If there is no insurance of the votes of people by some means, then most strategies are rendered meaningless because anybody can lie.

[Kainazoo]

With such rules, it's possible for a player( or even 2 players) to win more then the president.For example, if the last round ends with only one player voting and the president wins with 10 votes(or 15), all of which are from this guy, then this player wins 1200-150 = 1050 .The substracted sum is the penalty for not voting for the other players.

Also not voting should be a very important strategy throughout the game, so it will be good if there are simuilar things to the M tickets, with which you can buy somebody's strategy of not voting(or other) for money.If there is no insurance of the votes of people by some means, then most strategies are rendered meaningless because anybody can lie.

Indeed, I forgot the case where everyone abstains.

Oh, and there is another case where this happens, via a hidden rule (I didn't plan for it, but that's very Liar Game-ish) : you can also win with less than 50% of the votes, you just need for every other player to have the same amount of votes.

It's easier than it sounds : let's take for example a game with Fukunaga, Nao, and 14 NPCs. Every NPCs decide to vote in a circular fashion to start. Fukunaga and Nao vote for each other, but Fukunaga lies and abstains :
Everyone 10 votes - Nao 0 (Nao becomes a Citizen, Fukunaga has a 10M fine)

Nao starts to cry but Fukunaga tells her there's a way for her to make money. She votes as a citizen for Fukunaga, Fukunaga abstains again. Fukunaga 15 votes, everyone 10 votes (Game over, Fukunaga wins 400M-20M for fines, Nao wins 1200M)


EDIT : This is true that for this game, L and M Tickets are more suited than tablets.

[Togop]

Do you plan to host that, write a fanfic or something else?

[Shiraga]

woah O.O that's a pretty impressive set up there! I could easily imagine this being a fight between three different "parties" (Yokoya, Paradise, Akiyama) to earn the votes of the citizens.

It's got a really good twist to it too, because for an extended game it's most appropriate to LOSE as soon as possible. Since citizens get more votes they are the ones that rule the game. I could picture Yokoya himself ordering his lackies to not vote for him simply so that he would have more power.

While I'm on this train of thought, you could very easily cripple an opposing "Party" by not letting them turn candidates into citizens. For example;

Akiyama, Nao, and Fukunaga plan to turn Nao into a citizen so that more votes are at their disposal, so they plan for her to get no votes, or at most a handful from other players. (Let's assume that Yokoya has 2 others at his disposal like in Musical Chairs, and there is no Paradise cult, just for simplicity's sake)

Planned outcome;
Fukunaga+Akiyama= 15 votes each (They exchange votes, Nao splits hers between them) +X (Where X is votes optained from NPCs)
Nao=0 votes +X

Yokoya= 20 +X
Lackey A= 5+X
Lackey B=5+X

10 NPCs: 100 votes distributed around, minus whatever was given to the main "parties"

Yokoya has the most votes in that situation, but it's unlikely that he would get the majority (81) in the first round. However, what happens instead is something like this:

Akiyama: 15
Fukunaga: 15
Nao: 10
Yokoya: 20
Lackey A: 0
Lackey B: 0

10 NPCs: 100 votes divided around. Everyone with at least one vote.

Now Yokoya's party has a total of 40 votes to use as they please (11 of which are used to guarantee Yokoya's survival.) It becomes a mad dash to make citizens that are loyal to you in order to obtain a majority vote, with the Yokaya jerk-ass party trying to cockblock as many people as possible with each round while trying to gain favour of the NPCs.

I'm basing this scenario on the assumption that votes don't carry over between rounds, of course. Does anyone see a flaw in my logic?

[Kainazoo]

Do you plan to host that, write a fanfic or something else?

Like I said in the original post, if I host it, it will be IRL (But I'll post here the details). A fanfic? Why not, I didn't plan to, but I'll think about it.

[Fawe]

Sounds great! Can't wait to hear about the outcome

[aragorn1r]

Just get group of 5 people to vote for you then you win round one... They split the money each getting 240 mill

You vote everyone else

Someone has larger majority? You still makes money

Even if someone has the same amount of votes as you, you voted them so they have one more

You win or you win with less money

The only possibility of a tie is if only one other group existed with the same plan, in which case you spend 2 votes on each of the group members so your people become citizens. If he has the same pla, then everon but you both is a citizen, so you both have to spend 10 votes on each other and then you pay people to vote for you (up to 3 extra people)

[Shiraga]

Just get group of 5 people to vote for you then you win round one...

If there are 16 people playing that's 160 votes... That means you need 81 votes minimum to win Round one with a majority of the votes. (you need more than 50% of the total votes to win, not more than everyone else). If 5 people vote all their votes for you you have 50 votes, so you're a bit shy there... But that concept is sound. In theory.

The problem with the Liar Game is that it's a game of Liars... Trust is VERY hard to come by. Even IF you can convince 8 people to give you all their votes, and one other person to give you one vote... that's just all the more chance that one of them will try and convince the other people to betray you and make more money.

[aragorn1r]

If there are 16 people playing that's 160 votes... That means you need 81 votes minimum to win Round one with a majority of the votes. (you need more than 50% of the total votes to win, not more than everyone else). If 5 people vote all their votes for you you have 50 votes, so you're a bit shy there... But that concept is sound. In theory.

The problem with the Liar Game is that it's a game of Liars... Trust is VERY hard to come by. Even IF you can convince 8 people to give you all their votes, and one other person to give you one vote... that's just all the more chance that one of them will try and convince the other people to betray you and make more money.

So you mean like someone would betray you? I mean, the reason I suggest 5 is because if any other person were to get a larger following, you could vote for them.

But why would someone in the group betray you? They gain a profit if the plan is successful (1.2 Billion/5 = 240 Million), they make plenty of money. You want to minimize people voting for you so that people who vote for you don't have a real necessity to betray you right (for example, if you got 10 people to vote for you, then the remaining pot would be split 120 Million). For the example of starting off with 10 people, they could just get 7 people to vote for them, the remaining people not in the group and 3 traitors who would all agree to vote against you because the profit margin would be less (and they'd vote for all the people that weren't traitors with their votes, keeping all your voters as only candidates not citizens).

The reason 5 seems like a magic number to me is because their are 15 other people in the game, and you can spend 10 votes to get a chance of being in the pot of someone else's victory, and also because 5 is a smallish group that doesn't need to be diminished because it seems borderline capable of winning. Think about it, the traitor has to convince 6 people at least to join him, and then has to hide the existence of your group (because it would not be profitable for them to split the pot 1.2 bill/6 rather than 1.2 bill/5). If they knew of your group, they'd vote for you instead because it would not make sense for the traitor to vote for you while garnering votes for himself, ultimately being a self-destructive process, so he'd just assume the traitor didn't vote for me so the people voting me were now 4 which would return to the original 5 if they betrayed the traitor's group (a 40 Million Yen increase in profit). It's more likely you'd win by a landslide if the group was ever revealed. Hell, you can just reveal it at the beginning of the game, and then no one would likely betray you, only that someone else might create a similar plan, but that just follows my first post's logic on how to deal with that.

I mean, you can't just assume betrayal, right? The need to betray would have to come from a more profitable plan, because they all want money from this game, not because they're just punks who want to betray. To win the game, you need a big group, but the larger the group the higher chance of betrayal. If you're group contained Akiyama, Nao, Yokoya, Harimoto, and shortbob (forgot her name lol), you win, because all the people in that group would not be able to really form a traitor group (Yokoya would have to get a traitor and confirm that person was willing to betray if you announced it previously, and no one in that 5 man group would join his forces. Akiyama and Nao are trustworthy, so they'd be on your side (no advantage for them not to, they have to go through Revival Rounds to save people anyways, because that's where the LGT makes money anyways. The only possibility of a turncoat is Harimoto and shortbob, because they seek maximum profit, so you can just make the President Harimoto instead then to avoid a betrayal).