Ships & Technology

[chaos_animagic]

I been wondering about the ships....

So far all the ships we've seen are all "modern age" style...

But yet they all have "super technology"

So... why aren't the ship designs "future age" style to compliment the "super technology"?
Since they technically can "change" their looks as they're all made by "nanomachines"

(Like how the human had build their Counter Attack ships in future style - Space Ship looks)

But I guess the author wanted to copy real life ship's looks.... I want a future looking battle ship ;(
Except for Port-Hyuuga... who is a future style underwater port. (and the perfect example of how the ships can change their shapes)




And if it was "un-manned" in the first place, why did the Ship design with "Manual pilot" where it can be controlled by Humans?....
Wasn't the original purpose of the ships to annihilate all humans that goes out to Sea? so why do they have designs that allow humans to defy the original purpose?
If I was a Robot that's made to kill all Humans... I probably won't have a Pilot function for someone to jump inside me and take control... it's just stupid... LOL


Not to mention... who created the Ships? was it Nature? or was it something else?
Most likely it all points to this "Admirality Code" which is actually a name for another ship's Mental Model....
And where exactly did all these "Nanomachines" came from?

In the manga they said "Nanomachines started to gather (in the ocean)"


And what'll happen if the "Fleet" decides to combine all together like what Haruna and Kirishima did.

Will it turn into a sort of "Gundam"? or better yet... "Gurren Lagann".... LOL

[00idiot]

I been wondering about the ships....

So far all the ships we've seen are all "modern age" style...

They're not "modern" at all. Their appearance is an exact match for the WWII warships whose names they share, right down to Kirishima lacking a radar set at the top of her mast that Haruna has because the original battleship was sunk relatively early in the war, and never received such a rader, unlike Haruna's namesake, which lasted until the end.

But yet they all have "super technology"

So... why aren't the ship designs "future age" style to compliment the "super technology"?
Since they technically can "change" their looks as they're all made by "nanomachines"

Lack of imagination. They'd probably perform much better, but that's how they were "born" and they don't have the skill/imagination to change.

(Like how the human had build their Counter Attack ships in future style - Space Ship looks)

Hakugei is indeed awesome. Both forms are beautiful to behold.

But I guess the author wanted to copy real life ship's looks.... I want a future looking battle ship ;(
Except for Port-Hyuuga... who is a future style underwater port. (and the perfect example of how the ships can change their shapes)

Actually, Hyuuga originally had a form similar to the others (mimicking a WWII battleship of the same name). However, Gunzou and Iona defeated and sank her. Her mental model, main cannon, and other material were salvaged and used for Iona and the port though.

And if it was "un-manned" in the first place, why did the Ship design with "Manual pilot" where it can be controlled by Humans?....
Wasn't the original purpose of the ships to annihilate all humans that goes out to Sea? so why do they have designs that allow humans to defy the original purpose?
If I was a Robot that's made to kill all Humans... I probably won't have a Pilot function for someone to jump inside me and take control... it's just stupid... LOL

Nobody (not even the fog) really knows what the fog's original purpose is. Besides, given how hard it is to approach fog ships (without their permission, anyway), having a (probably lock-outable) manual control onboard isn't really a security issue.

Not to mention... who created the Ships? was it Nature? or was it something else?
Most likely it all points to this "Admirality Code" which is actually a name for another ship's Mental Model....
And where exactly did all these "Nanomachines" came from?

In the manga they said "Nanomachines started to gather (in the ocean)"

Given that the admiralty code seems to have been observing humans since before the fog was around, I'd say that it's probably not another mental model.

I think that the nanomachines formed and reproduced in the ocean (it talks about a material being detected in the seawater during that gold-recovery scheme).

And what'll happen if the "Fleet" decides to combine all together like what Haruna and Kirishima did.

Will it turn into a sort of "Gundam"? or better yet... "Gurren Lagann".... LOL

I think it would be ridiculously unwieldy. Also, it would be unlikely-one object, no matter how strong, can only be in one place at a time. That would break their global blockade.

We probably are going to see Gundam elements crop up-plot twists and politics will resemble UC Gundam shows, since this studio has previously worked on two Gundam side-stories, Gihren's Assassination Plot and MSV-R.

[FerrusManus]

One thing I wonder, why aren't Human armed with Nuclear arms and Railgun? Why are they still using relatively outdated conventional weapons consider the first time they met with the Fog was already 202x and they have relatively high level in almost all other tech?

[chaos_animagic]

Mostly because they "ran out of resources"... except for United States....

Funny thing is... United Stats is now made up of bunch greedy people that wants to take credit for everything.

See the 5 missile incident... no one in the US wanted to help each other transport... in the end... they lost all 5 missiles.



As for Nuclear Arms... maybe cause they're afraid of the side effects? (there are many...)
And Railguns... well... I donno... LOL



BTW... I had said "Modern style" it was because I was refering to "Old age - sail type boat", "modern age - engine boat", "future age - boosters"



And yea... I still don't get why them ships after 17 years... still kept the same shape and not advance to the next level... especially after they gained Knowledge and "Mental Models".
They already seen many other technologies such as spaceships and the counterships the humans are making...

But why... do they still chose to be "old style"?... why not change into a much more efficient shape and weaponry?


Especially with the fact they can "bend time and space"... so they should be able to actually "Fly"...

Instead of just diving and floating on water...

[FerrusManus]

It was estimated that the US Navy would start deploying railgun in around 2029 or so, which happens to be quite close to when the Fog first battled human in this manga. Given 17 years of development since (now they have walking tank, advanced AI, synthetic human, vibration warhead and stuff) no reason why railgun aren't common at this stage.

Nuclear and radiation fallout, when you are facing a very serious threat that non of the conventional weapons work I thought they would have turned to this (Look at almost all the big scale alien invasion movie, human aren't that scared to shoot Nuclear ICBM toward alien mothership). Especially when you read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Crossroads, this stuff would overwhelm whatever Kleinfield the Fog can muster and the modern Nuclear Armaments are much more powerful than that.

[00idiot]

Mostly because they "ran out of resources"... except for United States....

Funny thing is... United Stats is now made up of bunch greedy people that wants to take credit for everything.

See the 5 missile incident... no one in the US wanted to help each other transport... in the end... they lost all 5 missiles.

The US is doing everything it can.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/aoki_h...3/c015/17.html

As for Nuclear Arms... maybe cause they're afraid of the side effects? (there are many...)
And Railguns... well... I donno... LOL

As FerrusManus said, railguns are quite likely to be deployed. Most of the big ship guns we see at the Yokosuka Docks are likely railguns.

BTW... I had said "Modern style" it was because I was refering to "Old age - sail type boat", "modern age - engine boat", "future age - boosters"

It's the way they were "born". They don't have the intelligence/creativity/imagination to change their appearance. Besides, as far as they're concerned, that's the way they look. It has nothing to do with their appearance. Your basically talking about cosmetic surgery from their perspective.

And yea... I still don't get why them ships after 17 years... still kept the same shape and not advance to the next level... especially after they gained Knowledge and "Mental Models".
They already seen many other technologies such as spaceships and the counterships the humans are making...

But why... do they still chose to be "old style"?... why not change into a much more efficient shape and weaponry?


Especially with the fact they can "bend time and space"... so they should be able to actually "Fly"...

Instead of just diving and floating on water...

It's a combination of not needing cosmetic surgery, lacking the creativity, and not seeing a need. Their current forms are MORE than adequate on a technological basis. The only place they consider themselves lacking is in the tactical/strategic department. Their countermeasure for this is the mental model.

PS. The links are being blocked out. May you please post the names of the anime in your avatar and signature? The only one I recognize is Negima.

[FerrusManus]

Real railgun test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1q_rRicAwI

Doesn't look quite like any weapons shown in the manga.

[00idiot]

Real railgun test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1q_rRicAwI

Doesn't look quite like any weapons shown in the manga.

I've already seen this. Note that we haven't seen any railgun shots fired in the manga, only conventional coastal artillery. Also, bear in mind that this is an incredibly early and primitive railgun. If you look in chapter six, when our intrepid heroes arrive in Yokosuka, there are a large number of ships docked, and some of them seem to be mounting railguns.

Furthermore, it is doubtful whether a railgun would be able to break the Fog's defenses. If it had enough power, yes. However, it would be impossible to get enough shots fired that wouldn't be intercepted (railguns being expensive and unwieldy). To put through enough shots that they won't get intercepted by the Fog's laser-based active defenses, the rounds would have to be of low enough energy that they can be absorbed by the Klein Field without too much trouble.

Nuclear attacks are similarly problematic. The Klein Field means they have to put the rounds directly on the target to be effective, but the fog can detect which are decoys (they can tell corrosive warheads apart by sensing the material composition). This means that any inbound aerial missile is dead as soon as it pops over the horizon. Also, any torpedo/mine can be detected and dodged/shot.

PS: These guys have SHOWN THEIR WORK, they almost certainly know about railguns and know why they aren't being used.

PPS: In chapter 29, page 16(ish) when Maya is about to attack, we see her main guns elevating up, and the image of the attack trajectory is something like what a railgun would use. Going by the 4-koma at the end of the chapters, the Fog is able to set their main guns in different modes, including laser. I think it's safe to say that they can also use railgun mode. Maybe some of Haruna and Kirishima's shots in Yokosuka were railgun rounds? Going by one of the shots where their firing down, into the water, I'd say it's possible.

[FerrusManus]

Nuclear Arms, even if you manage to intercept the warhead, if you are close enough (which is pretty much what has been happening in the manga so far) you won't get off that easily since these nasty stuff has very large explosion radius unlike any weapons shown in the manga so far. If you go back to look at the Nuclear test they did with the target ships (which has Nagato in there as well) the humongous wave generated with tiny black dots that are those warships, was the result of an air burst, not even a direct hit nor anywhere close to the sea surface. Not to mention the Electromagnetic pulse as a result of the nuclear explosions would be enough to break apart the Fog's system. It may be just too complex for the mangakas to handle these and they choose to opt out, that is fine.

I don't know about Railgun being expensive, because walking tanks and all these technologies that Human are using in the manga are even further out of reach than Railgun, and the test Railgun is actually of low caliber. Railgun with large enough caliber and high enough velocity is very powerful, a simple showing is in Transformers 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJVdHhlLcTw. Sure, that's also fake but that's how they should be in this manga. Then you have Mass Driver, which is quite close to Railgun in principle but on grander scale, the primary space ship weapons used in Mass Effect series (which is relatively "hard" sci-fi). Those things is equal to or much greater in term of firepower compared to those Super Heavy Cannon the Fog used (I remember reading from ME1 that a shot from the Earth's Battleship equal to the Fatman explosion, but much more concentrated). The reason why sci-fi usually opt to showcase Energy weapon isn't because they are more powerful, but because they are shinier and eye-candy, especially using underwater condition they are even less effective (reflection).

Not dishing the manga btw, it's awesome.

[00idiot]

Nuclear Arms, even if you manage to intercept the warhead, if you are close enough (which is pretty much what has been happening in the manga so far) you won't get off that easily since these nasty stuff has very large explosion radius unlike any weapons shown in the manga so far. If you go back to look at the Nuclear test they did with the target ships (which has Nagato in there as well) the humongous wave generated with tiny black dots that are those warships, was the result of an air burst, not even a direct hit nor anywhere close to the sea surface. Not to mention the Electromagnetic pulse as a result of the nuclear explosions would be enough to break apart the Fog's system. It may be just too complex for the mangakas to handle these and they choose to opt out, that is fine.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Baker_Edit.jpg
If the detonation that your thinking of is this one, then that's Crossroads Baker, which was the second, underwater, shot in the series. Nagato, which was 770 yards away from ground zero, was badly damaged and sank after five days (although it can be argued that this was exacerbated by her generally miserable condition before being hit by two nukes). Given the before and after Baker images of Nagato that I've seen, I'd have to say that she might well have survived had she been manned. Now, that's a HUMAN battleship. Fog warships are MUCH more survivable.

Also, you have to take into account that they can detect the composition of warheads coming at them, and give priority to anything "special" that they see. Ballistic missiles can be seen from far away, and shot down at any point (they took out the SSTO in orbit, after all). Cruise missiles can also be seen coming, and shot down quickly, given their incredible reaction speed. Underwater projectiles have to be launched from much shorter range and move slower still. The only reason they didn't detect Hakugei was because of the much more diffuse nature of it's nuclear core and it's extensive shielding (which wouldn't be present on a warhead).

I don't know about Railgun being expensive, because walking tanks and all these technologies that Human are using in the manga are even further out of reach than Railgun, and the test Railgun is actually of low caliber. Railgun with large enough caliber and high enough velocity is very powerful, a simple showing is in Transformers 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJVdHhlLcTw. Sure, that's also fake but that's how they should be in this manga. Then you have Mass Driver, which is quite close to Railgun in principle but on grander scale, the primary space ship weapons used in Mass Effect series (which is relatively "hard" sci-fi). Those things is equal to or much greater in term of firepower compared to those Super Heavy Cannon the Fog used (I remember reading from ME1 that a shot from the Earth's Battleship equal to the Fatman explosion, but much more concentrated). The reason why sci-fi usually opt to showcase Energy weapon isn't because they are more powerful, but because they are shinier and eye-candy, especially using underwater condition they are even less effective (reflection).

The railgun being used right now is 9 MJ. The railgun being proposed for ships is 64 MJ. The 9 MJ warheads are said to be able to "core a tank" (they can take out a fully-armored tank in one shot and come out the other side). Now, take a look at chapter one. Light cruiser Nagara does not have a Klein Field. Only the normal Fog hull material, thanatonium, as a hull. In other words, Nagara is comparatively incredibly weak cannon fodder. Look at those smoke palls surrounding Nagara, and at those missiles coming in and at the size of the explosions. Those are direct hits from weapons that are detonating with more force than what you show in that movie. Those explosions ARE NOT EVEN SCRATCHING THE PAINT. Let's repeat that for emphasis-Explosions at least nine times the force necessary to destroy a tank (which is about what the 64 MJ railgun would be), are not even noteworthy. A MUCH bigger railgun would be necessary, since Fog warships can regenerate, and therefore only partially damaging the ship wouldn't be any good. Any mass-driver of sufficient caliber would work, but there would be collateral damage concerns, and the system would have to be mounted in space, and shoot-down-able, or in a fixed position on Earth, and counter-batteriable. Furthermore, you have to bear in mind that the Fog mount EXTREMELY powerful high-angle laser guns, which have the reaction time, and quite probably the power, to shoot down anything coming at them from a truly high height.

Bear in mind that Haruna and Kirishima took about the equivalent of a 1 KT nuke and noted that they had filled about 5% of their Klein Fields. Takao took a glancing blow from a weapon that WARPED SPACE-TIME, and still had quite a bit of fight in her. Yeah, I'd say that the Fog isn't going to be taken by either nukes or railguns any time soon.

Not dishing the manga btw, it's awesome.

S'okay, I know. Just trying to show you the extent to which these writers have shown their work, and how much thought they've given to making the Fog ridiculously strong. Bear in mind that even sinking a TORPEDO BOAT needed the resonance torpedo. I'm sure that if they could use a railgun against those, they would. Even a 9 MJ round SHOULD be enough to sink it, simply from the concussive force pushing the boat under. It seems evident that the hulls are simply SO strong that the Torpedo Boat, to use an example, will simply bob back up to the surface and keep going.