Yoma = Wendigo?

[faintsmile1992]

You know youre obsessed with Claymore when youre reading about something completely different, and it reminds you of yoma and yoki lol. Whilst I was reading about Native Americans today I found an article called "Reviving Witiko (Windigo): An Ethnohistory of “Cannibal Monsters” in the Athabasca District of Northern Alberta, 1878–1910" by Nathan D. Carlson, and it made me wonder if Yagi has heard of the Wendigo phenomenon and taken ideas from it.

Doesnt this sound like a yoma to you?

"The Witiko of the Northern Algonquian Cosmos In the cosmology of the subarctic and Great Lakes Algonquians, the Witiko is a cannibalistic humanoid monster or spirit entity that preys upon people to satisfy a compulsive hunger for human flesh. In the legendary cycle of tales (atâyohkewina) of the northern Alberta Cree and Métis, the Witiko is sometimes described as an owl-eyed monster with large clawed hands, matted hair, a naked emaciated body, and a heart made of solid ice. The Witiko’s hunger instinct is believed to be so insatiable that it has consumed its own lips. In essence, the Witiko’s frightening and grotesque visage and its superhuman strength make it the consummate predator of humanity."

And doesnt this remind you of the yoma eating human guts, as well as the way the Org puts the flesh of yoma into humans to give them powers?

"Cannibalism is thought to culminate in witiko by means similar to those of a contagion; like the flesh of any other animal, human flesh is believed to possess spirit power that is acquired through consumption of the tissue or organs. Cannibalism, in a sense, exacerbates the powers already present in the human consumer, in effect multiplying them and causing them to expand out of control into an incipient witiko compulsion."

And although I dont think that a Claymores personality is changed when they take the flesh of a yoma, this reminds me of what some people think about Yoki.

"In addition, an individual could acquire witiko through the influence of a spirit guardian (referred to in the Cree language as a pawâkan), a type of visionary spirit entity that formed a personal subjective relationship with a human host as an integral part of the religious experience of many Athabasca Cree and Métis. The pawâkan was typically sought after and encountered during a vision fast enacted at the onset of puberty, but could also be contacted in dreams and visions throughout life. The pawâkan required the performance of specific ceremonials in return for the bestowal of certain powers or abilities such as visions and knowledge, prowess or luck in hunting and trapping, etcetera. If a human host acquired a malevolent pawâkan, especially the pawâkan of ice, the North Wind (Kewâtin), or the Witiko itself, the pawâkan was believed to have the power to augment the human host’s personality so that it would operate in congruence with the spirit entity’s malevolent intentions. In effect, the personal identity of the individual would merge with, or be lost to, the personality of the spirit agent if the vision seeker accepted the pawâkan, allowing the entity to subsequently take over the body and faculties of the human host."

[sadhi]

i must i agree that it has some of the elements in it that you see in yoma
isn't it true that most fantasy stories have some part of folklore in them?

[faintsmile1992]

Yep, but its normally Western folklore if its in from Europe or the USA, or from Japanese folklore if its from Japan.

Theres a lot of influence in Claymore from a Polish series of fantasy books called The Witcher which have elements of Slavic folklore in them, but the Japanese have been exposed to Western culture since the Meiji era. Whats more interesting is wether theres a Native American influence on the concept behind the yoma.

Claymore feels like a manga about dhampirs hunting wendigos lol!

[HegemonKhan]

We see the same in many cultures, as much/most folklores', mythos', and religions' elements is universal.

Europe has its own cannibals too, Beowulf with the swamp+cave+underground people (Grendel and his mother), or retold by Michael Crichton in Eaters of the Dead or as 13th Warrior movie. Also, the Highlander tale (made into a movie series, but they're quite old now, lol) is quite similar to this as well, one immortal kills another immortal and becomes more powerful, until only one immortal remains, an all powerful god.

Every country, continent, and culture has its cannibalism, warriors eating other warriors to become more powerful. The Americas, Europe, Africa, Asia, and Australia.

Cultures around the world, believed by eating flesh of a powerful warrior gave them that warrior's strengths, or that part of the body's size or potency... cough cough... (Apocalypto movie with Mel Gibson)

Yoma though is an asian monster, a demon, and really what monster/demon doesn't eat human flesh, anyways, lol.

"The monster of fear, of the most primordial fear, being eaten by another animal, a fear that ALL life has, that which humans have invested so much effort to distance themselves from with their technology and civilization" -HK

[Clouded Leopard]

I agree that the Wendigo myth has uncanny similarities to the claymore and youma. (Very cool)

HK is right though. You'll find the same influences and similarities everywhere. In every culture and on every continent.
Ideas from myth, legends, and folklore are used over and over again in modern storytelling.

For example:
Right now I'm working my way through Dragon Age: Origins (PS3).
The main character is 'tainted' by the blood of the Darkspawn (evil monsters spawned from the sin of mankind). Soon he/she will die a long and painful death unless they can find a cure, but there is none. A warrior named Duncan comes along, he is a Grey Warden; a group dedicated to fighting the Darkspawn. Duncan says the only way for he/she to be cured is to become a Grey Warden.
'The Joining' it's called. Where the main character must drink the 'tainted' blood of the Darkspawn. If he/she survives from drinking the blood they become a more powerful warrior that is able to sense the Darkspawn.
The Grey Wardens are the only hope of defeating the Darkspawn in the Blight.

See, people taking in the blood/flesh of their enemy in order to fight them more effectively. Same stuff. You just have to put a different spin on it.

[faintsmile1992]

HK, Can Highlander really be placed in this category, as they dont actually eat one another or put one anothers flesh into their bodies. Although of course the surgical and other implied scientific elements of Claymore arent traditional, and the theme of scientists implanting the flesh comes from The Witcher, but its still a modern day variant of the ancient theme. Are you suggesting that the quickening is a sanitised version of cannibalism?

And the yoma arent a traditional Asian monster, HK. They were invented for Claymore by Norohiro Yagi, and if he hadnt read about the Algonquian traditions of windigo, then there are a lot of coincidences involved.

If we're going to start talking about monsters in general, then its worth quoting this text from the book Immortal monster: the mythological evolution of the fantastic by Joseph Andriano. whilst remembering what Riful said about eating a human being the same as eating a farm animal lol.

"I see Moby-**** as crucial to our understanding of a particular monster myth - or rather, the modern version of that myth, which finds its expression now mainly in monster movies and fantastic fiction. The modern Leviathan retains vestiges of the primordial sea serpent, but since the growth of natural history and modern science this great beast is the evolving serpent. As W.S. Merwin wrote in his poem "Leviathan" (1956), "He is that curling serpent that in ocean is", but he is also the serpent in our bosoms, in our brains. Most of us already know that monstrous beasts embody our anxiety over our own animal natures."

Monster stories might always have grounded in human anxiety over our own animal natures, but its only in the 19th century that people became so conscious about it. In Western philosophy, the growth of natural history and modern science such as Darwins theory of evolution had its equivalent in the ideas of Freidrich Nietzsche. Although the yoma might be supernatural monsters and theyre not really animals or beasts in the usual sense, the way that Yagi uses Nietzschean themes in Claymore ties the yoma and yoki to those aspects of human nature that people are afraid of or disgusted by, such as eating human guts or using children as playthings. The yoma and awakened beings havent done anything that humans dont do lol.

In fact human cruelty and hatred leads them to kick out vulnerable and sometimes abused children such as Raki and Clare out of their human hatred and cruelty, and humans still hate the Claymores in spite of the good they do, just because they look different and the way theyre created reminds people of the "evil" yoma.

And as for Grendel, because HK mentioned Grendel. The same book says that in a novel, a 20th century interpretation of Grendel feels a conflicted need to see himself as closer to humans, so he commits the either/or fallacy and sees his mother as a monster despite her ability to show positive, human-like behaviours like self-sacrifice. Doesnt this sound so much like how most of the Claymores see the yoma as monsters, and how they talk about their own human and yoma halves as though they were entirely separate, with nothing in common at all?

[HegemonKhan]

Yomas or Youmas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_R...se_of_the_Yoma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore_(manga)
http://www.trollandtoad.com/p231345.html
http://wikimoon.org/index.php?title=Youma
http://sailormoon.wikia.com/wiki/Youma

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http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Youma
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Youma
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Youma

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http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...c/dhyohko.html

"For over 2,000 years this clan has been defending Japan from incursions of "yoma" (a generic term for demons, devils and other supernatural beasts)."

[Clouded Leopard]

Youma => ghost, apparition

ようま (Youma in hiragana japanese characters)
よ - Yo
う - u
ま - Ma
(Actually in English it's just Yoma. Youma is like a literal translation ).

Anyway...
Note:
Apparition - a ghost or ghostlike image of a person.
Youma take on the form of their human victim.
I'm sure there's some japanese mythological explanation of this.

[faintsmile1992]

Yomas or Youmas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_R...se_of_the_Yoma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore_(manga)
http://www.trollandtoad.com/p231345.html
http://wikimoon.org/index.php?title=Youma
http://sailormoon.wikia.com/wiki/Youma

---

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Youma
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Youma
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Youma

---

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...c/dhyohko.html

"For over 2,000 years this clan has been defending Japan from incursions of "yoma" (a generic term for demons, devils and other supernatural beasts)."

Youma => ghost, apparition

ようま (Youma in hiragana japanese characters)
よ - Yo
う - u
ま - Ma
(Actually in English it's just Yoma. Youma is like a literal translation ).

Anyway...
Note:
Apparition - a ghost or ghostlike image of a person.
Youma take on the form of their human victim.
I'm sure there's some japanese mythological explanation of this.

Oh right Im an idiot, I didnt know that lol. But the links to the dictionary web pages that HK gave just give a definition of the word English monster, not of the Japanese word youma. And if the word monster is an accurate translation of youma, then thats another Nietzsche reference isnt it?

It would be more interesting to know what youma are in traditional Japanese culture than how theyre presented in different manga.

[HegemonKhan]

Yoma is also a Hebrew/Jewish word too.

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I'm pretty sure though, that this is the best/correct translation (but I/it could be wrong):

Yoma or Youma (Japanese) = Demon (English)

(I've seen it often sub-translated in various animes, showing the translation as a sub: Youma/Yoma = Demon)

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Japanese use Yoma or Youma so much for demons in their mangas, animes, and especially adult animes/mangas... and there's lots of animes/mangas with demons, with Yomas or Youmas, hehe.