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Thread: Proposed Virtual Child Porn/Lolicon Law

  1. #1
    N3wb
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    Attention Proposed Virtual Child Porn/Lolicon Law

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    If this passes will Kodomo no Jikan, and other lolicon comics be illegal?

  2. #2
    manga lover Shimashou00's Avatar
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    Wow people can posses pics of kids 12years old?
    i'm in the us so you'll understand if thats already an ourageous statement,
    but i wont judge. I will say this, making a law for a small area would set enough precedent to start a forest fire across the manga, anime, video game world.

    Yikes they're going after the 'non existant' children, and they havent even safeguarded the real kids yet.
    talk about the cart before the horse. Sigh, Japan is responsible for some of the hottest virtual things on this planet, and now it seems that the lawmakers there are striving to curb their own enthusiasm.

    Ah well to answer the question, this could be a precursor to an abolishment of
    manga like KNJ, sad as that may be. There needs to be some sort of divide between
    softcore lolicon and hardcore lolicon.

    3d girls aged 10 sucking and f*ing is hardcore and i can live without that.
    KNJ is totally modest by comarison, therefore i'd deem it sooftcore
    much like Moetan or Rizzlemine.

    If we as lolicon fans were to set our own limits on what we find appropriate
    then no one else would have to. Lolicon lovers need to say no to something
    or the lolicon haters will say no to everything.

  3. #3
    One of The Followers ShakuXIII's Avatar
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    I can't see it passing.

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    One of The Followers aaa222xx's Avatar
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    its not going to pass. they tried this like 10 years ago 5 ears ago. 7 years ago.

  5. #5
    One of The Followers
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    I HOPE it will not pass, but I have learned to never underestimate the collective stupidity of humanity, expecially those that somehow become our leaders.

  6. #6
    one of the dummy heads fake_it_so_real's Avatar
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    *cracks knuckles*

    Ahem...I get the feeling that the posts on this subject on this thread, so far, have been fairly reactionary. A genuine discussion happens when both (or all) sides of the issue are considered rationally. Hopefully we can have more rational discussion and less "people are stupid if they support this or that" type statements.

    Along those lines, I'd like to post a reply to the article from the link that Jimmg posted:

    It's a start, but only if it has effects on real world behavior. Ie, making it unacceptable to portray little girls in a sexual manner in drawings in turn ending up making it unacceptable to do so with real girls. Pedophilia is a global problem, but nowhere is it as seemingly publicly embraced as Japan. I say "seemingly" because there's an obvious bit of bias involved every time this is discussed, but the case stands: shit needs to happen if things are going to change, but I doubt this is going to change much at all.
    Not that it's going to hurt much either. Catharsis for pedophiles to keep them away from real girls is a neat (and yet awfully sick) idea, but it's not founded in reality. The reality is this interpretation of catharsis can play out like this: "person A likes/ is lead to believe he/she likes little girls, looks at sexually explicit material, his behavior and mentality towards the material eventually spills over into the real world when his fantasies end up playing out on a commuter train."
    Not to suggest that it has to play out that way, just that it can

    Of course, the main point of the article is that we are talking about imaginary girls and NOT real girls. However, one only needs to question, why is it illegal for real girls? Is there any good reason for a law against child pornography for real girls?

    Of course there is. However, cartoon characters are not real girls. It is possible that, if cartoon images of young girls can satisfy the sexual appetite of pedophiles then there is some merit in not forbidding such things, but how many people protesting this law are pedophiles?

    BTW, I would seriously question the author's comment that it is "apparently" legal to have "pictures of children 12 years and up". Please not the use of the word "apparently". That means he doesn't actually know and his statement is NOT a fact. All he needs to do to back up his story is to take a few photos of 12 year old children being sexually penetrated into the nearest police station. If he is NOT willing to do so, then why bother to report that it is "apparently" ok to own pornographic pictures of children as young as 12 years old, as a DEFENSE for legitimizing hand drawn pictures of children the same age? Could there be some bias showing here and is it possible that the author himself owns pornographic pictures of 12 year old children? I'm really trying to understand how that "apparent" piece of information was relevant to the story at all seeing as how the author himself reiterated several times that the problem lies with exploiting REAL children...can anyone else see a problem with his reasoning?

    Either way, the logic simply makes so sense; how can it be okay to have pornographic pictures of live 12 year old children but NOT hand drawn images of children the same age? There is obviously something missing from his report.

  7. #7
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    Well first off before you go looking for logic in laws, please remember the US is a place where in most states it is legally possible to get married before it is legally possible to consent to sex, and in at least one state it is legal to become a common law wife before it is legally possible to marry with parental permisson or consent to sex. Tell me the logic of that one please. That being said there is most likely something missing from his story, there really is no such thing as unbiased journalism in today's society only degree of spin. I have multiple problems with laws like the one being discussed. First I don't like people that can't seem to accept fiction is fiction and reality is reality and to be brutally honest reality is crazier than any fiction. Next is the idea I have held for many years that what is art to one man can easily be porn to another, so such laws tend to be subjective based on individule interpretation. Look at KNJ itself, if you just glance through it quickly it can easily be seen to be obsene, However if one takes the time to read the series that description becomes at the very least questionable. I honestly expect this law to have very little to no positive effect on society. Also with drawn fiction you also have the a lot of complicated isssues. What if the person just looks young in the manga but is actually not, how do you deal with a several hundred year old vampire or deamon that looks like a little girl?. What about the girls in some manga that are suposed to be in middle school but have breasts bigger than my ex wives and look 18+? How far will the pictures be taken out of context with the story? It really is a can of worms you open with this law. Please tell me how such a law can be logically and fairly inacted? What about manga such as Love Hina or Negima. In Love Hina Naru is 17 at the time she meets Kietaro who happens to be 20 and he sees her naked repeatedly. Does Naru look like she is 17 no, but she is none the less under 18 as stated in the manga. In negima you have eve a several hundred year old vampire that looks like a 10 year old girl, and who seems to have at least some feelings for a 10 year old human boy. Is that not an adult messing with a child when she tries to get him to kiss her? Both of those manga are just Shonen and I can make those arguments, what about more controversal manga? How far will this law be taken? How can something like this be defined when you are dealing with a subject that by its nature is not necessarily grounded in reality. That is why I call the law stupid, and feel that those who support it have not really thought it through to its logical conclusion. I rambled some in this post but hopefully my argument makes sense.

  8. #8
    One of The Followers Dominis1978's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimashou00 View Post
    Wow people can posses pics of kids 12years old?
    i'm in the us so you'll understand if thats already an ourageous statement,
    but i wont judge. I will say this, making a law for a small area would set enough precedent to start a forest fire across the manga, anime, video game world.

    Yikes they're going after the 'non existant' children, and they havent even safeguarded the real kids yet.
    talk about the cart before the horse. Sigh, Japan is responsible for some of the hottest virtual things on this planet, and now it seems that the lawmakers there are striving to curb their own enthusiasm.

    Ah well to answer the question, this could be a precursor to an abolishment of
    manga like KNJ, sad as that may be. There needs to be some sort of divide between
    softcore lolicon and hardcore lolicon.

    3d girls aged 10 sucking and f*ing is hardcore and i can live without that.
    KNJ is totally modest by comarison, therefore i'd deem it sooftcore
    much like Moetan or Rizzlemine.

    If we as lolicon fans were to set our own limits on what we find appropriate
    then no one else would have to. Lolicon lovers need to say no to something
    or the lolicon haters will say no to everything.
    I lived in Okinawa for a year and I walked into - or what I thought was - a normal porn shop. Well, most of it was normal except for the magazines and whatnot on the bottom shelves. Good lord. Wow. I thought I was going to get arrested for being in there because the bottom shelves were devoted to um... well, what we would consider child pornography in the US.

    I found this out by picking up one the magazines, opened it, and immediately set it back down because I couldn't believe what was inside. Needless to say, I never went back to that store again, nor any other that resembled it.

    Also, I bought a random manga magazine - they're freaking huge btw - (I can't read Kanji either lol) just to see the difference between an American comic and Japanese manga, because that was my first experience with manga. I really liked the art style and most of it was really cool except a one-shot towards the middle of the magazine...

    I remember some shounen type mangas in there that were freaking amazing, then I reached the middle part of the book... I look at a page or two of panels and I thought it was some dude picking up his daughter (probably 4 or 5) from school. Boy was I wrong. The next thing you know.... yeah... um... that shit got tossed in the garbage.

    I thought to myself, "is nothing safe in this country?" D: So, it was soon after that I decided to spend all of my free time in bars or exploring the island with friends. No more "I wonder if this is the same as it is in the US" referring to pron stores and manga. Hell, I bought the manga in the large open-air mall in Naha.

    I could go off on a tangent about pron vending machines, but I'll save that for another time.

    Anyways, unless the Japanese change the way that they view sexuality, the law won't pass; too many people don't think of a drawing or animation as people, so it's just a drawing or animation to them: I am excluding hardcore otakus from that generalization.

    Furthermore, I don't believe that there will be a line in the sand between the hardcore and simple stories such as KnJ, so if you read it now, expect it to disappear if the law passes.

    On another note, I would really like to see Aoki just destroy Houin. Oh my... oh my... Hell, show more of his sister >.>;
    Last edited by Dominis1978; 03-14-2010 at 12:42 AM.

  9. #9
    One of The Followers aaa222xx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominis1978 View Post
    I lived in Okinawa for a year and I walked into - or what I thought was - a normal porn shop. Well, most of it was normal except for the magazines and whatnot on the bottom shelves. Good lord. Wow. I thought I was going to get arrested for being in there because the bottom shelves were devoted to um... well, what we would consider child pornography in the US.

    I found this out by picking up one the magazines, opened it, and immediately set it back down because I couldn't believe what was inside. Needless to say, I never went back to that store again, nor any other that resembled it.

    Also, I bought a random manga magazine - they're freaking huge btw - (I can't read Kanji either lol) just to see the difference between an American comic and Japanese manga, because that was my first experience with manga. I really liked the art style and most of it was really cool except a one-shot towards the middle of the magazine...

    I remember some shounen type mangas in there that were freaking amazing, then I reached the middle part of the book... I look at a page or two of panels and I thought it was some dude picking up his daughter (probably 4 or 5) from school. Boy was I wrong. The next thing you know.... yeah... um... that shit got tossed in the garbage.

    I thought to myself, "is nothing safe in this country?" D: So, it was soon after that I decided to spend all of my free time in bars or exploring the island with friends. No more "I wonder if this is the same as it is in the US" referring to pron stores and manga. Hell, I bought the manga in the large open-air mall in Naha.

    I could go off on a tangent about pron vending machines, but I'll save that for another time.

    Anyways, unless the Japanese change the way that they view sexuality, the law won't pass; too many people don't think of a drawing or animation as people, so it's just a drawing or animation to them: I am excluding hardcore otakus from that generalization.

    Furthermore, I don't believe that there will be a line in the sand between the hardcore and simple stories such as KnJ, so if you read it now, expect it to disappear if the law passes.

    On another note, I would really like to see Aoki just destroy Houin. Oh my... oh my... Hell, show more of his sister >.>;
    yes i agree with you though i probably wouldnt of thrown them away i would use them as proof that the people who are so agaisnt lolicon here in the u.s cnat tell the differnece between reality and fantasy. manga fantasy. that girl over there reality.

  10. #10
    one of the dummy heads fake_it_so_real's Avatar
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    Well first off before you go looking for logic in laws,
    Hold on a sec! Please remember the context of my plea for logic was in relation to your comment...

    I HOPE it will not pass, but I have learned to never underestimate the collective stupidity of humanity, expecially those that somehow become our leaders.
    Obviously, there ARE stupid people and stupid laws out there. However, I was questioning a tendency within most of us to consider something to be stupid simply because we disagree with it. Whether or not this kind of law is stupid still remains to be seen. Personally, I don't think anyone opposed to this law has yet given evidence to suggest that the law really is "stupid". I think such an argument would require a fairly detailed explanation as to WHY it is so stupid including practical, real-life examples as evidence. Obviously, an argument about why it is NOT stupid would need to meet the same requirements.

    So far, the only explanations I've heard against the law are declarations from fans that there is a difference between fantasy and reality. Of course, they are right about that. But then again, that is a very simple black or white explanation, isn't it? Such an argument does NOT account for the MANY people out there who WISH that fantasy was reality. How many times has anyone on this forum wished that he/she could be a part of the stories hosted here? I know I have. But we all have differing levels of discipline when it comes to separating those fantasies from reality. Some people's abilities to do so are stronger than others, and some are much weaker than others. That is a fact of reality.

    I think it is also important to get a better understanding of just what this law is targeting. The author of the article suggested that it was unreasonable to expect that anyone could really judge what should or should not be considered inappropriate concerning sexual drawings. I think his bias is showing again.

    He listed "sailor suits" on young girls as an example. Obviously, there is an element of sexuality anytime a woman or girl is photographed or drawn for the purpose of selling an image of beauty. I don't think it is wrong at all to appreciate the beauty of the female form, but at some point that appreciation becomes inappropriate. Regarding the sailor suits example, I think it was yet another example of his own bias, and perhaps a flawed reasoning of a lot of other people on this issue, to use such inoffensive examples as revealing clothing to demonstrate the supposed stupidity of this law.

    Did the author really believe that revealing or sexy clothing was the main focus of a law banning the sexual exploitation of children in art? Of course not. There are MANY, MANY examples of children in explicitly hardcore sexual situations which he could have cited, but he didn't. It's probably the same reason why he said something like "well hey apparently it's legal to own explicitly sexual pictures of REAL girls as young as 12 years old, so what's the big deal?"

    Although he made a point of expressing the difference between real girls and hand-drawn girls towards the end of his article, the fact that he used this apparent legality for being able to own pornographic pictures of real girls as young as 12 years old as SUPPORT for why it should be okay to also have pictures of hand-drawn girls is evidence that he is NOT really concerned so much for the difference between real and fantasy, but rather, simply for the right to view explicitly sexual pictures of underage girls. Consider why he said NOTHING against this apparent legality of being able to own pornographic pictures of such young girls, but rather, used it as evidence to support his case. I commend Dominis for expressing his disgust at the real life exploitation of minors.

    Although you may find yourself having no problem whatsoever with distinguishing the difference between a cartoon girl of 12years old or younger being sexually exploited (whether she wants it or not) and a real life girl of 12 years or younger, have you considered how other people viewing such material are likely to react?

    What about the people who DO NOT have such an easy time dealing with the differences? What about the people who view cartoon drawings of minors and, as a result, only feel a kind of longing to make those fantasies into reality?

    Can you see how there is more to this issue than just "my right to view manga"?

    Consider a real life example:

    Also, I bought a random manga magazine - they're freaking huge btw - (I can't read Kanji either lol) just to see the difference between an American comic and Japanese manga, because that was my first experience with manga. I really liked the art style and most of it was really cool except a one-shot towards the middle of the magazine...

    I remember some shounen type mangas in there that were freaking amazing, then I reached the middle part of the book... I look at a page or two of panels and I thought it was some dude picking up his daughter (probably 4 or 5) from school. Boy was I wrong. The next thing you know.... yeah... um... that shit got tossed in the garbage.
    Now, if this difference between fantasy and reality really is so huge, so easy to discern, so easy to follow, then why in the hell is there real life hard core pornographic pictures of a girl MUCH younger than the apparently (according to the author of the story) legal age of 12 stuffed into the middle of the comic where anyone reading is guaranteed to find it? Are you really so justified in shouting "real vs fantasy" in such a circumstance?

    Can you see now how black/white points of view on this issue start to blur quite a bit? It is simply NOT as easy as saying "it's just a drawing so shut up already".

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